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@rafSo people often wonder why there isn't an explicitly Anti-Zionist Jewish instance. This is often said by people who hate Babka but wish there was an alternative. Let's explore the challenges of such an instance.
Firstly, there have been Anti-Zionist Jewish instances. There was masto.jews.international, kibitz.cloud, and even simcha.lgbt originally were all explicitly Anti-Zionist instances. So you can make one but what problems happen?
Well, it turns out people who hate Jews don't care if you are Anti-Zionist. They will accuse you of being one despite all evidence to the contrary. Not everyone will believe the bigots, but enough will that you will deal with regular harassment if you have any visibility.
Any visibility here meaning gentiles are broadly aware of your instance's existence, and you push back in any way on antisemitism from gentiles on the network.
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@raf Is there really a point of anti-zionist jew instance ? That seems very restrictive and I don't think it's good to be defined negatively (except for antifascism of course). As far as I understood jews.international was more for internationalist than explicitly anti-zionist.
@raf That would not be from me. I don't think I have ever looked at the about page, I just followed kittybecka and witnessed the endless antisemitic campaign against her
@alter_kaker It depends of the mean and intends I guess. Is the internationalism only for the Jews ? Is it for everyone but a long therm goal and Zionist is a step towards the abolition on nation state for oriental Jews not to be wiped out before it happens ?
Pure internationalism would be antithetical with zionist but then, people don't live in a world of theory and are not (and it's ok for me) fully coherent with every theory in which they believe for some degree
@raf
@rafThese are all ideas. I suspect all Anti-Zionist Jewish instances if given the room would evolve towards a focus on cultivating דאָיִקייט with less emphasis on discussing nationalism. This emphasis on what the instance is for vs what it is against will be fruitful.
The challenge is that stance doesn't neatly fit into conventional understandings of Zionism/non-Zionism/anti-Zionism/post-Zionism so the instance will be dragged into endless rudimentary discussions the community has long outgrown.
Discussions where "wrong" answers will invite harassment.
@raf dukayt has such different meaning depending on who you ask, that I'm not sure your statement about it is meaningful. Moreover, remember that invoking a slogan from the lineage of Jewish thought actively hostile to traditional Judaism excludes people like me from the conversation.
But yes, I don't see the point of a public Jewish instance, especially centered around anti Zionism. I'd be more interested in a private or at least posting-restricted forum.
@raf@babka.socialIt's honestly shocking how many Jewish spaces are actively exclusionary to traditional Judaism. That's something that took me too long to understand.
@raf @alter_kaker @derle this is a thing that is super present in my mind. I don't like going to my Hamburg shul because they have extra prayers for IDF soldiers but none for innocent Gazans and it feels super alienating. But I also feel pretty out of place in the secular groups, bc they are often subtly (sometimes more overtly) hostile to frumkayt.
I just want to be in religious community and be unapologetically queer, in queer community and be unapologetically Jewish, and in Jewish community and be unapologetically an anarchist and a mystic.
@raf @alter_kaker @derle also lol/sob, I remember that some, I think it was bundist, Jewish labor group back when they were fighting for the 6 day work week... They decided that Sunday would be the weekend they'd fight for. As a practical example of the Bund's not-friendly-to-halacha track record.
@raf @alter_kaker @derle since this got a couple re-toots I'll also shout out https://www.shelmaala.com/ which calls itself a Queer, Online Yeshiva which is explicitly anti-zionist, but I find it somehow unfulfilling. Maybe basic is the word. Lots of "who knows where I can get BDS approved matzah" and, I duno... I didn't feel any ruach trying to fit in there. I'll never be fulfilled in this way I guess.
In addition to all the above demands, I also want there to be singing and dancing and joy.
I'm the guy alone on the island with the shuls he'd never step foot in.
@rafI'm also ready for some singing and dancing
@raf @alter_kaker @derle ooo never heard that, it was delightful!